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Rza

How undetectable is this? Really. Questions and concerns... My POV

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Hi. I’m new to contributing, but not new to HIS, or the forum. I’ve spent a considerable amount of time over the past year reading all the diaries, entries, posts and re-threads from the forum vets, and newbies – oldest to the newest. I know each of the forums contributors individual cases fairly well because just like you, I’ve studied your images, and carefully read your words. More than once.


Almost everyone looks better/younger with hair (shaved or not), and in some cases, from what I can tell in pictures, HIS has done the impossible and recreated a very realistic, and almost undetectable head of shaved hair. In “some cases” being the key phrase. We all know that losing our hair, for most men, is a crippling experience aesthetically, emotionally, and psychological. Some even say it’s like losing a limb. I make that point because I think it’s important to note there seem to be some men who get the procedure done and are so happy to have found a solution that even if it’s not the best that it can be, they are happy regardless. For some, I’m certain this is true. God bless you. I mean it. Personal style and self-confidence is all about how you feel. Personally, I wouldn't be satisfied with just a pretty good job.Or even a damn good job, if it is detectable in any way.  In fact, I would be devastated!! Personally, I think a detectable balding solution is eons worse than having the self-confidence to shave your head. I’m secure with my bald, shaved head. I have a “hula skirt” like many of us but I wet shave almost every morning before work and it gives me a clean, polished look of classy, stylish gentleman. With that said, I’d STILL PREFER TO HAVE HAIR because as I said, almost everyone looks better/younger with hair. I want to look the best I can in all ways, always. Look good – feel good. Which is why I am VERY interested in what HIS is doing. But, I have some issues with it.


From what I’ve read and what I can see, the replicated hair follicles are extraordinary, in most cases, and provided they are not too big. HatingHats (HIS forum Veteran) is very knowledgeable in this and many areas pertaining to HIS treatment and he has been a great source of info for all of us. According to him and his lab's optical laser micrometer, the MHT dots on his head are 130 to 300 Um in diameter.  An average hair on a Caucasian scalp is about 77 to 100 Um, so the pigmentation (at least on him) is very accurate. That’s amazing and incredibly exciting for all of us. I can’t help but wonder why ALL the HIS follicles can’t be 77 to 100 Um? I happen to think this procedure on African Americans is a no brainer. Perhaps because you can’t see follicles as much on darker skin tones, and the straight hairlines are much more prominent on AA.


With that said, there are a some issues I see with the HIS procedure:


 1. Natural, broken hairlines


 2. Color and density matching


 3. Lack of long(er) term knowledge, experience


 4. What does a completely lasered off treatment look like?


Regarding #1: It seems that as of lately more and more people considering the procedure are realizing that a straight hairline causes the most detection. Followed of course by point #2. Or at least, the hairline doesn't look natural therefore raising questions from family, friends and colleagues. People that get the HIS procedure done and talking about it are now realizing this hairline issue and asking to do something about it. Lately, more people contributing to the forum are requesting pictures of a softer/broken hairline as this seems to have a much more natural look as opposed to the straight hairlines that have been produced thus far. In addition to requesting more pics, people scheduled for the procedure seem to be asking their practitioners for this, but I have not seen enough of these hairlines in pictures yet to convince me to move forward. Where are they? One or two new examples is just not enough. And, we rarely hear from the practitioners themselves about how they are continuing to challenge themselves, and getting better at producing more natural hairlines, and overall skill set. I think we would love to hear them chime in on the forums. They’re on the front line and the most equipped to answer questions, or share pics of their newest, and/or best work. Just like tattoos artists. I chose my tattoo artist based on recommendations, and pics of their work.


Regarding #2: There are a lot of posts after the procedure about the follicles being too big, or the color and density not being right with their natural hair on the sides. Yes, a lot of those concerns seem to be worried customers just days after their first treatment, but there are plenty who after their done still seem to have detectability – specifically because of color and/or density. AKA, dots being too big and/or too dark. I realize that individual chemistry is a factor, but I also believe a lot of this has to do with the skill of the practitioner. Things like the harder you press down with the tool, the larger the follicle, the lighter your touch, the smaller the follicle. Also, choosing the right shade ink to perfectly match your wet shave, or your one day growth, etc. Is this considered when you’re in the hot seat? Is it tested?


Regarding #3: I’m terrified as to what I might look like in 10 years, yet unsurprisingly still interested in the procedure myself! Will the ink fade, will the dots blur, will I have a green head, will the exact same haircut that never waivers tip off the keen observers? I've seen one or 2 people who have had it a few years but its not enough. Are there any more?


Regarding #4: Has there been anyone completely dissatisfied with the treatment that had it completely lasered off? I would love to see the results. I want to see this because, If for whatever reason this doesn't work for me I want to be assured that I can go back to being completed bald. No scar, no remnant ink, etc.


Additionally, we have to admit that this is part artistry and really a lot of your results ride on that practitioners individual talent and experience. I think it would benefit us all to know more about who is working with us, and what his/her body of work is like. Has he/she done softer hairlines, for instance? Has this practitioner been better with specific clients of some sort? Can we hear from them? See more pictures of clients who are way past there last session?


Beautiful people of the HIS forum, and staff -  I whole heartily commend HIS as a business for creating a forum section for people to sound off, share experiences, pictures, etc. Good and bad. It helps us all understand what it is we’re getting into before committing, it helps us learn what the best approach to us as an individual is, and it creates a community for us to bond with each other as only us baldies understand what this is all about. But, it also helps the HIS team learn, grow and get better and better at this artistry. HIS are genuinely changing the game, and what Ian and Ranbir have created is brilliant. I do believe they are transforming the industry, but according to what I am seeing, only in some cases has HIS created an undetectable case. I hope I can be one of them too. Lastly, I hope that in no way that I have offended anyone here because I do think you look absolutely fantastic!!! G Bless!


-Rza


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One of the best posts I've read here on HIS....very good questions and concerns...

If you go back and check out threads that are 6+ months old up to now, you can see that HIS has improved as far as hairlines go. Most of the old work looks to sharp or faky. They're coming around

and I agree.....I've seen threads where people were happy with their results even tho they have a fake looking hairline and/or a black scar running across the back of the head. Forum members praise their new look while I sit here and say "You've got to be kidding me". That guy looks even worse now

I went to the NYC office and saw clients first hand. The work was undetectable for the most part. If I did see anything, it was because I was looking for it. To the normal person walking down the street, they won't be able to tell IMO.

I plan on moving head with MHT but I need to see more scar results before I go down this route. So far I haven't been blown away. Some have been to 2-3 sessions and look like they never had work done. Others can't get it blended correctly or it comes out to dark and doesn't fade like it's supposed to.  Results can vary and this is a concern. The good part is you can always start with the scar and get the top done down the road if your scar meets your expectations. I was going to get it all done at once but now I'm leaning towards scar work first.

Anyway, I'd love for Damien and others to chime in. You brought up some great points

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I am a  bit busy at the moment finishing a research project, but I wrote the comments you are referring to, so I thought I would hit on a few main points:

Not all dots are 70 to 100 Um because of human hand pressure.  If the practitioner presses a bit harder the dot is 250 Um and if they press very light it might be about 80 Um. No humans possess the ability to maintain the same constant hand pressure across a three or four hour treatment, so dots vary in size.  There is an easy remedy for this problem that HIS is not aware of and that concerns their pigment needle oscillators, and I will leave it at that.

As to point number 3, I have answered those questions in fairly exacting detail in the FAQ section under the Bioengineering header (written by me).  Please check that section out.

As to point number 4, out of reading here in the forums for nine months now, there have been two individuals who have overall been unhappy with their results even after working with HIS for some time to make adjustments. There is also a larger class of people who have varying feelings about the look, blend and psychological adaptation needed once the treatments have been completed.  They are not unhappy, but simply find the treatment to be as life changing as they initially hoped for.  Many younger men in their 20s often experience this result as they often recently had hair in high school and have not lived with balding for decades like some older men who have lower expectations and more realistic goals.

Will post more in the next few days when my workload decreases.  Have a good evening.

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Great post, great questions.  These thoughts have traversed my head since I came across HIS and the forum.  I have only seen two folks with the treatment and I had to be about 2 inches away and really ...I mean really look hard to discern the treatment from natural/real hair.  It is far more critical and important that the patient and practitioner undergo the right hairline ...and IMO softer is typically better.  The broken/softer fading transitions along the hairline simply look better and more authentic ...especially on the light skin fellas, those with dark skin clearly have a bit more versatility and "play" with the hairline choices and treatment in general.


All that being said I will personally take the rest of my days with a look that contributes to my overall mental well being.  I will hopefully be busy buying my life back in the little tid bits that I have taken for granted since I started to compensate for my HL (i.e. concealers, planning around my touched up head, worry, no swimming, not allowing my kids to touch my hair ...the list is endless right?)

Its all about the artistry, I feel that everything hinges upon the experience, assessment, planning and execution of the practitioner.  Ultimately it is our choice to commit to this, but the points you have raised should be at the very least considered by each of us.

I for one look forward to this particular thread and subsequent thoughts of those on the forum.

Cheers,
-Oper8er

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Welcome to the forum Rza, and thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts so comprehensively. The answers to much of what you ask would be based on opinion or interpretation rather than black and white facts, but I'll do my best.

1. Undoubtedly we have seen a growth in demand for broken hairlines, in fact about half of all our clients now ask for this, bearing in mind that they have only really been covered in the forum and not all of our clients know this forum exists. I understand your frustration about the lack of photos to demonstrate broken hairlines, but we have no direct control over who chooses to post here, and who doesnt. As a rough estimate only about 5% of all our clients post photos in the forum to show their results, and a tiny minority of those allow us permission to create a case study for their treatment. I agree with your point, but there is not much we can do other than post what we have permission to show, like the photos on this page
http://www.hishairclinic.com/treatment/your-style-options/

2. If you remove from the equation the people who report a mis-match too early on, the percentage of clients who report long term issues is tiny, its just that if they do have a problem they're more likely to post here so what you see is actually disproportionate. We offer a 12 month guarantee to ensure that any short term fading or mismatching is taken care of because after that period its pretty much plain sailing. A lot of the time the first we know about an issue is when the client posts here, because they haven't contacted our team to resolve it. We cant resolve issues if we're not aware that they exist. Its not a perfect science, so sometimes remedial action is necessary.

3. The pigments may fade, yes. They certainly wont turn green as they're based on pure black pigment and therefore have no constituent colours that can separate. Its simply impossible. Have you ever seen a client on here with a green head? Furthermore, these keen observers you mention do not exist. No-one cares about your hair enough to observe it over a long period of time. The only person who pays that kind of attention is you.

4. No-one has ever requested a full removal by laser. The only client who wanted it removed is a forum member called Nedworthy, and he had his removed before we started using lasers. You may see a fair few partial removals in this forum over the coming months though, due to the increased interest in broken hairlines. Some of these guys who want to adjust their hairlines will need to take their existing hairline back a little to avoid the hairline becoming too low.

I am sorry, but we will never have a situation where each practitioner is effectively 'profiled' on this site with their tech spec, portfolio etc. It is simply unsustainable as a business model, as we'd have practitioners with waiting lists whilst others sat around drinking coffee, often without any just cause. We have practitioners who are barely mentioned on this forum who produce outstanding work. Until recently #### was barely mentioned. Jason isnt talked about that often. #### used to get mentioned all the time, but not so much lately. Flavour of the month seems to be #### and Matt, but this changes all the time.

Our reputation is worth a substantial amount of money, so we're not about to put that at risk by employing practitioners who are not capable of doing the job. Thats why we train all our staff from the ground up, and do not employ those who have worked for our competitors. The only exception is Virginia, but although she worked for Vinci it was HIS who trained her in the first place. As you'll see in another post, we ended Aldemars employment because his standards started to slip.

We expect a lot from our practitioners. Clients need to trust us to get it right, and to put it right when we dont.

Good questions by the way :)

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Welcome to the forum Rza.


An excellent post and you have asked the questions most of us here must have pondered in our heads at some time but maybe just didn't ask. I hope Damien's answers helped ease some of your concerns just as they have for me as i too continue to move ever closer to this treatment.

Bears1985 - You mentioned that on your visit to the NYC office that the work on clients that you saw was mainly undetectable but that if you did see anything it was because you were looking for it. Can you elaborate as to what you saw when really lose up?

Tim


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I have been researching for months RZA reading almost every thread, looking at pictures, videos plus going to London Open Day.  I have spoken, emailed many people and it has helped me greatly. My money is almost saved and I am decided on the clinic I want to go to and the practitioner I want to do my work. 


Do plenty of research and I have no doubt you will go ahead. 

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RZA, 


I read every word of your post but will only address your title, How undetectable is this...Really?

I'm here to tell you from my experience its REALLY freaking undetectable! I've been around most of my family and friends, had a get together for 40+ customers, and was at a birthday party last Saturday with over 50 people in attendance and no one noticed a thing. I've been face to face, normal talking distance, in normal lighting, bright lighting, and everything in between with over 100 people I know since my first session and nothing, not one question. I've had at least 10 people rub my head and no questions. I had a nurse come up to me while I was still on the patient bed after a back injection and rub my head. She says oh I love shaved heads do you mind if I rub it? I said ummm, ok, she then proceeds to take both hands, while standing nearly directly over me and rub my entire head for what seemed like an eternity. Anyway, she just said I love how it feels and walked away. I had a good customer come up from behind me at the happy hour I put on and put me in a head lock while he rubbed my head for "good luck" and he just said I like your head shaved you should keep it that way. A lot of these guys are balding themselves yet they didn't notice the MHT. I'd say its the real deal.

BB

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@Tim

I inspected Matt's head while in NYC. While he was sitting in front of me, 2 feet away, I could see that his head was dark in some spots and looked more like paint than MHT. He mentioned he suffers from some disease but I don't exactly remember...It wasn't bad and to the normal person, they wouldn't notice. Remember, I was looking for MHT

Matt took me down the hall and introduced me to the other practitioner (Greg, Craig..??) so he could show me example of scar work.  I couldn't tell he had work done until he kinda turned his head and you could see a small shadow of the scar...but again, nobody is looking that closely. His MHT work was undetectable. I was a few inches from his head and it was undetectable. I personally could see the very very small MHT dots but again, I was looking for it.

The third guy was an ethiopian looking guy who was waiting to have scar work done (3rd session). He had 2 scars behind his head which were visible. You could see the white around the scar. The top of his head was amazing. I couldn't tell he had work done. If it wasn't for the scar, I would have never known he had work done no matter how close I would have looked.

I'm only 3 hours from NYC and a roundtrip bus ticket is $32. I'm actually thinking about going back to NYC to hang out in the HIS office and check out clients as they come and go. I'm sure Matt and the crew would be OK with this

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Bears 1985,


Thanks for the information.
So, what we're saying is that, very close up, and from certain angles, there may be one or two things that someone who is REALLY looking to see something could see. However, to the casual observer it would look perfectly normal. This re-assures me considerably as I continue to ponder the pro's & con's of MHT but I have to admit there are more pro's than cons.
I know that we all want an undetectable result from our MHT treatment but maybe at times we just want it to be TOO perfect.

Tim

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@Hats: thanks for your reply. So, if I understand correctly, you wrote the bioengineering section of FAQs? I assume then, that you work with or for HIS? If not, how or why would they let a client write their collateral regardless of their knowledge in any particular area of expertise?

A few things regarding your reply - in the bio-engineering section of FAQS (which you wrote) it does indeed say that the size of the replicated hair follicles (dots) are determined by the pressure the practitioner uses when applying the ink, but there are conflicting statements in
the FAQ section about these sizes. Below is a cut and paste right off the FAQ section of the site. Can you clarify this?

First FAQ paragraph: Explain a quick technical overview of what the MHT process entails? "Typically, the dot size is dependent upon practitioner hand pressure and is in the range
of 80 to 170 Um (micrometers) at the frontal hairline and 120 to 250 Um at the back apex of the scalp…"

Second FAQ paragraph: What is the size of the needle which pierces the scalp and what is the
pain level realistically?
"Under light pressure the needle can make dots about as fine as 80 Um and under very heavy hand pressure from the practitioner, it can make dots up to perhaps 900 Um…"

So is it 250 Um or 900 Um? Big difference and do you think it could make a significant impact on the appearance, or lack of, of the overall treatment??

Additionally, you go on to say that “No humans possess the ability to maintain the same constant hand pressure across a three or four hour treatment, so dots vary in size.” That is alarming to me in the sense that I would certainly not want dots any larger than the smallest/closest to real follicles as possible. If no human can maintain the same constant
(light) hand pressure for 3+ hours then why are the treatments 3+ hours? 
Shouldn't they be 1 hour so the practitioner doesn't tire and get heavy handed? I don’t know if I buy it @Hats. If I were a practitioner I know I’d maintain the hand it takes for the best result. Could they get lazy poking dots in your head for 3 hours all day, everyday? Yeah maybe. That kinda bothers me.

In your reply, you go on to say that “There is an easy remedy for this problem that HIS is not aware of and that concerns their pigment needle oscillators, and I will leave it at that.” First – what does that mean?? Please don’t leave it at that.. It is also an interesting statement
because according to another paragraph in the same FAQ section titled:
“How big will the MHT pigment globules trapped in the collagen appear to be when the scalp fully heals?”. The article states that the dots cannot be bigger than what MHT is doing because “The problem with this would be that smaller dots laying under the epidermis, in the dermis would then be too small
to be noticed by an observer’s eye from one meter away or further. At an average size of 80 to 250 Um, the pigmentation dots need to be large enough to not be fully removed by roving macrophages and also large enough to show through the epidermis as distinct dark dots that mimic actual shaved hair follicles.”

So, I dont know... But, from what I am gathering, it seems like a successful, undetectable and realistic result comes down to 4 things:

1. individual chemistry makeup (DNA, norwood scale, etc)

2. hairline choice

3. the direction or lack of that YOU are giving your practitioner during your visits. ESPECIALLY the first one

4. the skill and artistry the practitioner (hairline, color, density.. and how light or hard their hand pressure is when applying the dots??)

Right or wrong?

 @JB – thank you for replying. Great points you make and I agree. I appreciate that.

Regarding #3, however. When the color does fade, what’s your opinion on what it will look like if left alone? Rather than getting another treatment to make it all fresh again? I’m 43 and while I want it now, I may not want a fresh application at 50. Know what I mean? And whats your suggestion, if it fades or not when Im 50 and I want to get it toned down in a realistic way? I may be able to get the hairline pushed back with a laser, but what about thinning out the density?

Also, I have to completely disagree with you that there are no keen observers. For one, my family and friends WILL KNOW w/o a shadow of a doubt that SOMETHING has happened with my hair. I am bald JB! I don’t hide it, I wear it loud and proud cause for me that was the only way. As I consider this treatment of course I’m thinking subtle but even so, something from nothing is going to be noticeable. Obviously, this is a unique problem for my individual situation. Won’t be the same for people that can claim they just shaved their heads.

@Bearsblow - thank you. Good to hear it.

I sincerely hope that by no means, no one takes offense to any of this. I’m not poking holes in MHT by HIS. I think its brilliant. More so for some than others. These are just observations I’m making during this research period so that I can make a well informed decision. Again, I am interested in getting this procedure done. I believe in it but I feel that the stars need to be aligned just right (4 points above) for it to work in the best way possible. 

~Rza

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Rza, in the last year or so that you have been looking into this treatment how many real people have you met in person who have had MHT done?

And if you have met any people, what was your view on their treatment? Was it detectable?

Let's face it you could spend another year or two analyzing the pictures and videos posted here, however that will not show you what it looks like in real life. In pictures/videos you may see things which you think are imperfections however in real life the naked eye does not see this.

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John, 


Good post. Fact is nothing in this forum meant anything after I saw the treatment on Ian in real life. Once I saw Ian and that the treatment was the real deal none of the topics in here could have swayed me not to do it or even raise additional questions. However, I wasn't looking for a reason not to do it, I was looking for the green light to do it and Ian's head was that green light. The pics I and others have posted just don't tell the real story. In person, in real life situation, varying lighting etc, I bet all the money I have no one would ever guess what I've done without knowingly looking for it and even then......  The forum is a great place to read and get familiar but the only way to feel comfortable is to see it in person. I met a guy a cpl weeks ago and his reaction was great and he was looking for it. That told me people not looking for it will never find it, because its that REAL. 

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Rza, the answer is that the size of the MHT dot depends on many factors but the three most important are collagen micro-structure, bleeding level and practitioner hand pressure.  If the two former are held constant, then with extremely light pressure, the practitioner can place a dot that is about 100 Um in diameter at say, the frontal hairline.  In the back crown, which often resists MHT, the practitioner can use more hand pressure to place lets say, a 250 Um dot.  The roughly 900 Um dot size would be if if the client had extremely tight skin and the practitioner applied very large pressures (which no experienced practitioner would), which to be fair, I have never seen with a HIS treatment. I cite that only as an estimate of what a 3 round needle could do as hand pressure became very large.  As to what looks realistic, you must take the simple focal length equations from physics to compute what begins to look odd to a casual observer, and that answer is about 300 Um from one foot away.  Up to 300 Um and an observer cannot really notice the MHT dot as appearing fake from one foot away.  Beyond 300 Um and they can.  Obviously, as the dot size is increased, the casual observer can notice it as fake from even further away.  Likewise, you could use a series of layered carbon nano tubes to place a 5 or 10 Um dot, but the client or observer's eye would not note this as a discrete dot, but rather as a gray blur. (human optical resolution for a person with perfect eyesight is about 10 to 70 Um depending upon exact contrast compared to background and refractivity of substance)  For optical physics reasons, that is why dots of about 80 to 130 Um are preferred.
     As to the ability to consistently replicate 100 Um dots, I prefer not to comment. The same problem only for a different context was solved conclusively by a mechanical engineer in 1768. I have passed on some initial ideas to HIS and been treated as an outsider.  Even after requesting several times to sign a NDA (this is a Non Disclosure Agreement and is a legal document which binds the signee to hold proprietary information secret or very large monetary penalties can result) so that I could better work with Damien to write the FAQ section and the information about pigments, I received no reply.  This is probably because HIS was burned by one or two people in the past (like Dr Rasman) which I can perfectly understand.....hence, my willingness to sign a NDA, which would fully protect any intellectual property of HIS.  I have absolutely zero interest in setting up a micro-pigmentation clinic and know very little about modern business practices.  Yet, despite this, my ideas show up in other guises without credit, and I am treated at a distance.  So perhaps this fear of being burned again is something that will hinder HIS until they can set up the correct legal protections to allow them to work with potential innovators.  I had hoped to work with HIS as a technical consultant and design engineer to help improve several details about MHT, but that would need to be done with better lines of communication and credit where credit is due. Time will tell I suppose.  It is difficult to trust a new guy when you have been burned by someone you considered a friend in the past.

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HatingHats, if there is an issue with your agreement with Ian, please do not discuss it here. I am not aware of any issues but if you feel there are, the most appropriate course of action is to call Ian on his cell number. This is really not the place for it.

Rza to answer your question, HatingHats helped us to write our FAQ's section, in fact most of it was written by him, for which we are grateful. This is a private matter though, so I cannot go into any more detail about our arrangement.

We dont know for sure how the pigments will look if and when they start to fade in years to come, in fact we dont even know what proportion of clients will experience fading. Ian Watson had his treatment 11 years ago and although he has had a couple of adjustments as we've experimented with different techniques, he hasnt experienced any fading. Some clients experience slight fading after 3-4 years, others havent had any fading after 7-8 years.

My hope (and my best estimate) is that slowly fading pigments will look not that dissimilar to a thinning head of shaven hair. Everything we know points towards this being the most likely outcome. If this is the case, then clients will be left with 3 options - a touch-up treatment, laser off and re-apply or leave it to fade.

You mis-understand my comment about keen observers. Of course if you are totally bald and turn up one day with a full head of shaven 'hair', then people will definitely notice. What I'm saying is that no-one will notice the fact that your hairstyle never changes AFTER your treatment, quite simply because no-one cares enough to notice except your nearest and dearest.

I feel you are over-analysing this, and I completely agree with John. We could spend years debating the finer points of the process, but the bottom line is that it all comes down to one question - what proportion of HIS clients are satisfied with their treatments? These are intelligent people who arent about to blindly accept whatever we give them. If an overwhelming majority of our clients are happy with their treatments, this tells us more about the realism of their 'hair' than any amount of analysis.

Where are you based? I would strongly urge you to come and see us, or come to one of our open days. We're not about to try to 'sell' you our services, its not what we do. Have a real close look at someones head and judge this for yourself.

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@ RZA - I wish I had written your post as you cover exactly what I have been thinking from start to finish. 


There was some good questions and for me I think @Damien answered them well where as normally people here (contributors) tend to get too sensative/defensive when someone puts a negative post or asks too many questions.

I didn't join the forum so I could sit with a cup of tea, flowers in my (remaining) hair, Beatles in the background & give free hugs all day but because I wanted to get more knowledge about the treatment which I have as its a fantastic forum & some of the contributors here are just pure Gold however @ Bears1985, I agree 100% with what you wrote:

"I've seen threads where people were happy with their results even tho they have a fake looking hairline and/or a black scar running across the back of the head. Forum members praise their new look while I sit here and say "You've got to be kidding me". That guy looks even worse now" 

But @ bears1985- regarding being undetectable: 
I want my treatment to be undetectable which means 100% undetectable and not "undetectable unless you are looking at it from a very close angle" as you mentioned because that is what a lot of people will be doing.  
 
Even some of the Case studies up I personally wouldnt be happy with but I appreciate that people have individual taste & most results are down to peoples own choices of hair lines, densities etc I still can't stop thinking about the fact that You have to pray and hope that Your practitioner didn't have a rough night, huge argument with the wife before coming in etc as his 1-2 hours on your hair will have a massive impact on your life (lookswise) going forward. 

@Bearsblow Your treatment looks superb because you had a good set of hair left so even when touching it there is stubbles etc. Due to the scar you don't choose to go too many days without but we have all seen you can go without shaving for quite a lot of days and for me personally that was the finally game changer as that was what I was looking for: A treatment to blend so I could carry a buzzed look and that's what I'm going for. 

But at the end of the day the results comes down to your choices & the practitioner on the day & I believe with good communication and sensible decisions first of all on hairline you will walk out super happy. 

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@Damien, I  dont think its about HatingHats arguing something on the post that are out of line. I think he perfectly answer RZA question in regards to if he is working with/For HIS..  in fairness I actually think its valuable information as I have been wondering why there  wasnt some special column from him as I thought he had started to work with HIS.Nobody can deny the effect he has hat on this forum and the importance for

Many considering the treatment including myself.  
 

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I have no issue at all with people knowing about the arrangement between Ian and HatingHats, and I do not doubt for one moment the huge contribution he has made to this community, but if there is a grievance of some sort this is not the appropriate place to discuss it. I have great admiration for him and I appreciate all his efforts so far. Further to this, lets move the conversation onward.

Some of the case studies dont show their treatment at its best. This is largely due to the fact that the photos are taken at our clinics immediately following a treatment session, when the skin is still red, the hairlines are more defined and the follicles havent had chance to shrink and fade yet. I'm going to try to remedy this soon by contacting these clients for more up to date photos. I'll keep you posted.

Just to clarify, we want people to ask questions. Lots of questions. Thats what this forum is for. I'm simply saying that there is a limit to how much this treatment can be analysed without seeing it for real. If anyone here wants that level of detail they need to see it in person for themselves, otherwise they run the risk of contracting analysis paralysis which doesnt help anyone.

I know everyone is different. Some people just want to see a few photos, whereas others want a lot more detail and thats fine. I'm very aware however that there are a great many people here who have spent 2 years or more in this forum. They have every intention of getting this treatment "someday", but most probably won't in reality and that can't be a healthy approach. We'd prefer clients to spend a few weeks or months here deciding whether or not this treatment is for them, rather than putting themselves through the anguish of indecision about something so emotive as losing their hair.

Anyone here who knows me will know that the above is said with the best intentions, so please take my comments as they are meant.

Your comments about the practitioners state of mind on the day is a fair one - no argument there. Our job is to make sure our practitioners are always on top form whatever happens, because when you have someones appearance and confidence in your hands, second best is nowhere near good enough.

Thats why so many of our practitioners are former clients, because you can't truly understand the importance of what you're doing until you've been there. Read Simons thread, and ask yourself what this job means to him. Or Damon, Jason, Zang, Brian, Matt, #### F, Sam, Jonathan, Greig ........... Life happens, and they have good days and bad days too just like we do. I can say with considerable authority however that you will never meet a more dedicated team of guys who genuinely care.

Sorry if that sounds like a sales pitch but if you saw what I see some days, you'd understand where I'm coming from. Thats why we're always encouraging people to come and meet us. Its not because we're going to try to sell you anything, its because we want you to see that we're genuine people and that we can be trusted to always do our best.

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I can categorically state that I could not have been made feel more welcome and couldn't have been looked after better at Birmingham. I saw a tv program and booked my appointment BEFORE joining this forum. Impulsive? Maybe so, stupid? Some may think so BUT what was the alternative? I tell you what..... Continued unhappiness and self hating. I really believe this to be one of the best things I've ever done. If I have to pay more money in ten years for further treatment or maintenance then so be it. If I paid a barber to cut my hair once a week then the cost of a top up in 10 years time will be considerably less than all those haircuts. This isn't a miracle cure for hair loss it's a brilliant solution to hiding it. I think if you accept MHT for what it is and be realistic then the decision (for me anyway) is a very simple one.

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@RZA

"In your reply, you go on to say that “There is an easy remedy for this problem that HIS is not aware of and that concerns their pigment needle oscillators, and I will leave it at that.” First – what does that mean?"

I guess a transparant adaptor to the stylus with adjustable length longer then the needles which will be rested on the head before the practitioner manually oscillates the needles with a touch sensitive button..... Trademarked it first:)!

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Personally I think some people look far too much into the mechanics of this treatment. I am one of the many happy clients that have been lucky enough to have gone through with this. Not once have I thought are the dots too big or is the technician pressing to hard. I just trusted and got a great result. I'm sure if this was ever a problem this forum would be inundated. I think that speaks volumes.

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Rza, overall, the dots are usually 80 to 250 Um (micrometers).  Taken as a totality, .... the treatment will not be noticed.  In speaking with several skeptics on the phone and participating in this forum for several months now, only one or two people had (at least IMHO) real and valid complaints about dot size, but both of them had a unique set of problems concerning their scalp before treatment began.  I would not call MHT dot size a slam dunk, but it is not an aspect of the treatment you need to worry about.  I agree with the others in that you should, if time allows try to meet some other clients and first see it up close.
     As to my relation with HIS, I wont go into more detail, except to say that I believe they have been burned by dishonest individuals before meeting me and this is probably the reason they are initially suspicious of anyone who might work with them.  Fortunately, at least on this side of the pond, there are more lawyers than there are ants on the ground.  Many legal mechanisms exist that can allow HIS to work with third parties while still fully protecting their intellectual property and proprietary information (like pigment composition). Many of these measures are so strict (or can be made to be so), that any infringing party can be bankrupted if critical information is revealed (I know this, because I have worked on such projects here in San Jose, CA for tech companies) and large civil penalties can ruin any offender. I think once senior staff at HIS begin to investigate these legal options, that will allow them to work with others without fear of competitors using their trade secrets to start their own clinics or steal business.  It is something I hope they have a chance to look into in the coming months.

LOL Magic :)

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SkinheadBoi
:
 I'm sure if this was ever a problem this forum would be inundated. I think that speaks volumes.

 

Some people choose not to expose problems publicly. It can be tiresome having multiple sessions, the traveling, dissapointments etc. etc. The last thing you want then is to be on a forum and read about other people success stories.......

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